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  #1  
Old 08-26-2010
redhawk redhawk is offline
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FAQ lift options needed

We need a lift options thread in the FAQ's. It seams like all the newbies like myself come up with this same question.

Here's what I can figure out from the various threads:
Mr. Scout 2" lift is probably the best option.

SOA - spring over axle is probably the most common but the detail on what all should be done to do it right probably needs it's own thread.

Early CJ 5/M38 lift is and option but a 4" lift kit for the jeep nets a 2" lift on the heavier scout.

Scout II springs are an option but they are wider and I'm not sure if stock scout II springs net any lift at all. I also don't know if SII leaves are the same length or longer. I believe longer.

Add-a-leafs net 1-1.5" lift

Shackles but can create caster issues in front.

Re-arching is an option but most say the springs sag over time. I've also read about springs having a memory but it must be short term because they start out flat steel, then get bent, then heat treated, then sag, then re-arched to original arch or larger then sag again. Sounds like my memory, always changing.

Reverse shackle nets some lift evidently because I've read where those who have added a reverse shackle in front then ad extended shackles in back to level things out.

Anybody to care to build a know all tell all on 80/800 lifts for the forum FAQ's?
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  #2  
Old 08-26-2010
danbill danbill is offline
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

I agree with you Redhawk. Seems like there is a lot of conflicting info on this topic. A good guide with all the pros vs cons would be nice for those of us that are new to this. Heck I still don't know if its the springs Mr. Scout has listed that give the 2" lift of the add a leaf that does it? Neither has a good description on the site.
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  #3  
Old 08-27-2010
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

Mastiff recently installed the Mr.Scout 2.5" lift on his, and several members have used the early CJ5 springs (SurfnTurf) Perhaps they can add some input/pics.
Mastiff: http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=95783
Surfnturf:
http://www.justih.org/Binder-Bench/s...ad.php?t=11323
http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=80373

The problem with shackle lifts (particularly in the front with the stock forward shackle design) creates negative caster which will cause poor handling, wandering, etc.

Here's a cliff notes version of SOA:
*doing a cut and turn on a closed knuckle front is not impossible, but is more difficult than doing a cut and turn on a later open knuckle if you are considering an SOA, I'd suggest finding a set of donor axles (D44+) since the D27 isn't going to last very long with larger tires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guidolyons View Post
Check out Ronnie's Lil Red Bus build he does a good job documenting a SOA with Scout II D44 on his red 800. Search for "SOA" "cut and turn" "caster" on here and on Binder Planet, that should give you some ideas.

Although a SOA swap sounds simple, there are many other things to consider. The rear is the easiest, set new spring perches on top, lightly bolt up to the springs, set pinion angle, tack weld perches. Remove from Scout and fully weld the new perches. Bolt back in. (you'll still need to take in account rear driveshaft length, brake lines, and shocks)

The front axle is more complicated, the basic idea is the same, but in addition to driveshaft, brake lines, shocks, and pinion angle, you have to consider proper steering geometry and caster angle. You should not need shims if you do your SOA properly. Again, loosely mount the spring perches, and set the pinion angle. This, of course, will make your caster angle horrible. To fix the caster angle, you will have to "cut and turn" the inner Cs on the axle. This involves grinding out the weld around the axle tube, and heating and beating the C's into submission with a sledge hammer. You'll need a good angle finder (digital preferred) to make you you set both sides exactly the same. A few tack welds to hold the perches and inner Cs in position, then remove it all and weld it up. Then, reassemble and bolt the axle in.

Steering: Once you've done a SOA and cut and turned the Cs, you'll need to address the steering. Stock Scout steering isn't going to work any more. The best bet is to convert to a high steer crossover steering set up the put the steering above the springs (which will require special flat top knuckles milled flat a drilled to accept high steer arms) You can use a bent drag link (known as a Z-link, but it's a half-assed way to do it.

You might want to research RS(reverse shackle) and/or "shackle reversal" there are many schools of thought on it (and pages and pages on the internet). Cliff notes: Some guys prefer the shackle forward design, others prefer the reverse shackle design. With the shackle forward, as the suspension compresses (going over a bump, or trying to climb an obstacle) it wants to move the axle down and forward, which makes for a rougher ride, can push you off an obstacle, and will often bend the main leaf on the spring pack. With a shackle reversal, as the suspension compresses it moves the axle up and to the rear, which makes for a smoother ride, and can help climbing and obstacle.

Personally, I prefer the reverse shackle. IHOnlyNorth sells a good kit, and if you don't have a lot of fabrication experience, it's probably worth the $300. Or you can piece it together yourself for a lot less. Same goes for the rear disc conversion, you can piece it together yourself for cheaper.

So...you still want to do an SOA?

IF you stay with a SUA and run longer shackles, you will need a shim to correct the caster (or you can do a cut and turn) if you don't address the caster angle and just run longer shackles your caster angle will be horrible, and the Scout will wander all over the road. Now, how much you need will depend on your Scout, each one is different, there is no set amount that you'll need to change it. It could be 2* it could be 10*. Stock, most Scouts had 0* caster, so if you run longer shackles it will tilt the pinion up and the caster angle forward (negative caster) which will cause poor handling/wandering. You want to shoot for 4*~6* of positive caster (top of the knuckle tilted toward the rear of the vehicle) of course you'll have to take pinion angle into account as well.



Ok, I think I answered most of your questions...

Here's a good discussion about caster angle:http://www.justih.org/Binder-Bench/s...ghlight=caster
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  #4  
Old 08-27-2010
redhawk redhawk is offline
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

Great start guys. I think it would be wonderful to get all this in one place (FAQ's) and input from as many experienced on the topic as possible.
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  #5  
Old 08-27-2010
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

I'm in the same boat! I have learned that Scout II springs are longer, not just wider, and you would have to relocate spring points on the frame. One other option for lift springs is Alcan in Colorado, will make custom spring packs with the correct pre-load and dimensions for the 80/800. Price between 800 and 900. Check "mini build 18" thread by Damian Grihalva out on binder planet. Good info on lifting 80/800 and swapping D44's from the sII in. Back country binders has a total lift kit(springs, caster shims, brake lines, u-bolts, plates, etc...) for around 1300. I read that these are supposed to be the same springs that Mr. Scout carries. SOA, from what I've read, varies in set-up from rig to rig and the owners end goals for the lift, so there is no "one size fits all" thread for doing a cut and turn. There seems to be alot of variables to setting this up correctly. There's alot of good build threads with the SOA done, but each one seems to different. Bill USN-1 has a good step by step thread on SOA on a sII, but I don't remember if it's on Binder Bench or Binder Planet. I hope this helps some, I still searching and will add, if I find anything else.
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  #6  
Old 08-28-2010
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by guidolyons: You can use a bent drag link (known as a Z-link, but it's a half-assed way to do it.
Interesting POV.
But a personal opinion at best.
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  #7  
Old 08-28-2010
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill usn-1 View Post
Interesting POV.
But a personal opinion at best.
Bill, I always value your input.

But..."most" Z-links are usually poorly executed band-aid for poor steering geometry, when a better/safer way exists.

Yes, a Z-link can be used safely, (particularly on axle where high steer knuckles are not available or it's not feasible e.g. D27) if designed and reinforced properly, not the stock drag link bent to clear the springs and reinforced with booger welded re-bar.


My point being, take steering geometry into consideration when deciding how much lift and what method is used. With the older Scouts, the old ball and socket drag links don't work so great once you start throwing a lift and bigger tires on the Scout.

Are you going to keep the stock axles, or swap something else in? What are your goal for the Scout? Daily Driver, Mild trails and Off Road, etc etc.
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Last edited by guidolyons; 08-28-2010 at 05:20 AM.
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  #8  
Old 08-28-2010
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

I have recently had some problems with the Mr. Scout lift springs that we installed on a customers Scout 800a. The front drivers side spring sagged out 1 3/4" within a month of driving this Scout around. My solution was a set of CJ5 4" front springs, I installed them yesterday, now the Scout sits level and actually brought the front up level with the back. I will take a few pics of the springs when I get to the shop and post them. As most of you know I am a big fan of running CJ5 springs on any 80/800 if you are looking to get a small lift. I am picky on what brand of springs to use, Superlift being my favorite. I will NEVER put Mr. Scout springs on a customers truck unless that is all they are willing to do. FYI Mr. Scout told my customer to switch the springs around, then he also said that a spacer was required in the rear of the Scout on the passenger side and that was his reason for a sagging front drivers side. No other action was taken by Mr. Scout to resolve the spring issue. I also have another customers Scout that has 6" Alcan springs on it and the rear shackles are inverted with the Scout sitting on flat ground, I will also take some pics and post them later today. I posted a pic of the blue Scout to show the way Mr. Scout springs work on the 800 with a v8 and 31x10.5's with 5" shackles to bring it closer to level with the rear,and later I will post a pic of the Scout with the CJ springs in front to show the difference, I did not have my camera but I can have the owner send a pic to me. notice the angle on the front shackles, with the stock shackles they would have been flat
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  #9  
Old 08-28-2010
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by az scout guy View Post
I have recently had some problems with the Mr. Scout lift springs that we installed on a customers Scout 800a. The front drivers side spring sagged out 1 3/4" within a month of driving this Scout around. My solution was a set of CJ5 4" front springs, I installed them yesterday, now the Scout sits level and actually brought the front up level with the back. I will take a few pics of the springs when I get to the shop and post them. As most of you know I am a big fan of running CJ5 springs on any 80/800 if you are looking to get a small lift. I am picky on what brand of springs to use, Superlift being my favorite. I will NEVER put Mr. Scout springs on a customers truck unless that is all they are willing to do. FYI Mr. Scout told my customer to switch the springs around, then he also said that a spacer was required in the rear of the Scout on the passenger side and that was his reason for a sagging front drivers side. No other action was taken by Mr. Scout to resolve the spring issue. I also have another customers Scout that has 6" Alcan springs on it and the rear shackles are inverted with the Scout sitting on flat ground, I will also take some pics and post them later today
How long have these other rigs been running these CJ springs? I'm not doubting your response/experiance, but have read alot of negative stuff on other members experiances with the CJ springs. I agree that quality of steel and manufacture process will make a HUGE difference in product. In these economic times, I just want to get the most bang for my extremely stretched buck. I really dig your builds/work by the way, totally awesome!
Thanks,
Nevada
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  #10  
Old 08-28-2010
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustynCrusty View Post
How long have these other rigs been running these CJ springs? I'm not doubting your response/experiance, but have read alot of negative stuff on other members experiances with the CJ springs. I agree that quality of steel and manufacture process will make a HUGE difference in product. In these economic times, I just want to get the most bang for my extremely stretched buck. I really dig your builds/work by the way, totally awesome!
Thanks,
Nevada
I ran CJ5 4" superlift springs on a 1970 800a with a 304 and 33x9.5 tires(pic) for 5 years extremely hard on it and never saw a sign of sagging. I have a friend with a 67 sport top with the 196 and he has ran superlift 4" spring on it for 13 years and it still shows no sag. If you call and talk to superlift the use to offer a set for the slightly longer and heavier CJ6, I believe they were the same springs with an add a leaf, But I have never ran them. One drawback to the CJ5 springs is they do require longer rear shackles to sit level with the front, 5" shackles if I remember correctly.
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  #11  
Old 08-28-2010
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by az scout guy View Post
I ran CJ5 4" superlift springs on a 1970 800a with a 304 and 33x9.5 tires(pic) for 5 years extremely hard on it and never saw a sign of sagging. I have a friend with a 67 sport top with the 196 and he has ran superlift 4" spring on it for 13 years and it still shows no sag. If you call and talk to superlift the use to offer a set for the slightly longer and heavier CJ6, I believe they were the same springs with an add a leaf, But I have never ran them. One drawback to the CJ5 springs is they do require longer rear shackles to sit level with the front, 5" shackles if I remember correctly.
Cool, thanks for the pic and info. That's a good lookin rig, about what I'm looking for. Gona remove the PO FUBAR SOA, and put a set of D44's from the terra heap under it SUA. Only lookin to run 31's. It's all raked- rear up right now and has one of those homebrew Z-links and no cut an turn, as far as I can tell.
Thanks,
Nevada
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Last edited by RustynCrusty; 08-28-2010 at 07:33 PM. Reason: my poor spelling skills
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  #12  
Old 08-28-2010
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

Az Scout Guy,

With the CJ5 4" Superlift springs in a SUA, is a z-link required or can you use the stock drag link?
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  #13  
Old 08-29-2010
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

So far I've had no issue with my Mr. Scout springs. I know Robert Kenney has been running them with success for a while now. The dudes over at IHON have nothing but good things to say (IHON doesn't have their own to sell). Personally, I don't like the idea of running springs for another application if it can be avoided. I was going between custom Alcan's and Mr. Scout when I chose. The combination of $$ savings and IHON recommendations (and time savings) pushed me to Mr. Scout. I'll report back if something goes south... Mr. Scout seems like a really nice guy on the phone, I can't believe he'd blow off a customer.
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  #14  
Old 08-29-2010
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

[QUOTE= Mr. Scout seems like a really nice guy on the phone, I can't believe he'd blow off a customer. [/QUOTE]

Not that Mr. Scout blew him off, he just told him it was because of the rear spacer and to try swapping them from drivers side to the passenger side. Mr. Scout is a good vendor I am just stating my experience with the springs on an 800 with a 304. The picture shows the spring eyes 1 1/4" difference with the springs lined up stacked on top of each other.
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http://canyonoffroad.com/
69 800a, SOA,RS,tbi 345,727,d44 power-lock 5.13's, ford 9" detroit 5.13's, hi steer, 38.5x11.00 boggers, daily driver(sold)
79 rallye built 345, custom headers, 727, SOA,RS,35x12.5 BFG
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  #15  
Old 08-29-2010
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by scout-ED View Post
Az Scout Guy,

With the CJ5 4" Superlift springs in a SUA, is a z-link required or can you use the stock drag link?
The stock daglink will work, but you will be able to turn one way further than the other and will have some bump steer. My suggestion for any kind of lift on an 80/800 would be to redo the steering links and replace the pitman arm with a tapered end instead of the ball, or you can machine your existing pitman arm with the proper tools. FYI, I now have an aftermarket setup for Scout 80/800's it's DOM draglink and tie rod with 3/4 rod ends, also an even heavier version with 7/8 rod ends. Sorry I don't have them on my website so you have to call.
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281 S. Ironwood dr. Apache Junction,AZ
http://canyonoffroad.com/
69 800a, SOA,RS,tbi 345,727,d44 power-lock 5.13's, ford 9" detroit 5.13's, hi steer, 38.5x11.00 boggers, daily driver(sold)
79 rallye built 345, custom headers, 727, SOA,RS,35x12.5 BFG
76 traveler SOA, RS, 350 tbi, 700r4,d300 4to1
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  #16  
Old 08-29-2010
michaelp michaelp is offline
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

FWIW I have CJ5 springs on my 800B. It needed 5 1/2" shackles in back to level it out. Whether it's "level" is partially an optical illusion, because the front wheel well is cut out higher than the rear.
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Old 08-29-2010
Albuq. Henry Albuq. Henry is offline
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by az scout guy View Post
Not that Mr. Scout blew him off, he just told him it was because of the rear spacer and to try swapping them from drivers side to the passenger side. Mr. Scout is a good vendor I am just stating my experience with the springs on an 800 with a 304. The picture shows the spring eyes 1 1/4" difference with the springs lined up stacked on top of each other.
I hadnt noticed the pic had both springs on top of each other...
So he says they built the springs different for a purpose?? or one side sagged and made the difference?
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  #18  
Old 08-29-2010
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Albuq. Henry View Post
I hadnt noticed the pic had both springs on top of each other...
So he says they built the springs different for a purpose?? or one side sagged and made the difference?
No, they should be identical, he said there is a 1/2" wedge between the spring and pad in the passenger side rear on 232 and 304 Scout 800a and b, This is in the parts book for the 800A and B with a special note saying 232 and 304 engines, but is not drawn in the exploded view. I have never seen one with it but they probably get tossed out at some time
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http://canyonoffroad.com/
69 800a, SOA,RS,tbi 345,727,d44 power-lock 5.13's, ford 9" detroit 5.13's, hi steer, 38.5x11.00 boggers, daily driver(sold)
79 rallye built 345, custom headers, 727, SOA,RS,35x12.5 BFG
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Old 08-29-2010
Albuq. Henry Albuq. Henry is offline
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

I went and looked at mine... Looks like there is a spacer on the pass side. for sure in the rear the front might have one too but the axle is machined different so dont know how that plays in there...
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Old 08-29-2010
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by az scout guy View Post
No, they should be identical, he said there is a 1/2" wedge between the spring and pad in the passenger side rear on 232 and 304 Scout 800a and b, This is in the parts book for the 800A and B with a special note saying 232 and 304 engines, but is not drawn in the exploded view. I have never seen one with it but they probably get tossed out at some time
I'm trying to learn something here, and I guess I misunderstanding and could use some clarification please.

I'm under the impression Mr Scout thinks you installed the springs on the wrong side? With the 1/2" spacer missing, and the springs reversed (L & R), I could see where it would be lower on one side if the differences in the two sets of springs is intentional. Is that what he's saying, that the spring eyes are not supposed to align when you lay one on top of the other, because of a 1/2" shim that corrects for it?

I'm getting ready for some lift also, so am reading up. I'd like to get the facts straight to help my decision. Thanks in advance...
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  #21  
Old 08-29-2010
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by BioTex View Post
I'm trying to learn something here, and I guess I misunderstanding and could use some clarification please.

I'm under the impression Mr Scout thinks you installed the springs on the wrong side? With the 1/2" spacer missing, and the springs reversed (L & R), I could see where it would be lower on one side if the differences in the two sets of springs is intentional. Is that what he's saying, that the spring eyes are not supposed to align when you lay one on top of the other, because of a 1/2" shim that corrects for it?

I'm getting ready for some lift also, so am reading up. I'd like to get the facts straight to help my decision. Thanks in advance...
Here is a pic of the 40 year old springs that came out, notice they are identical to each other. Mr. Scout just was saying to try to switch them an see if it made a difference, the only difference was the side the sag was on. the wedge is only on the rear pass. side.

Edit- I added a pi I took at the RMIHR of Robert's Aristocrat with a 232 and what appeared to be Mr. Scout springs, I took this pic for the guy I built the 800 for so he could see that these other springs looked just like his with a sag on the drivers front. Maybe Robert can tell us If these are in fact Mr. Scout springs and if they are sagging at all. notice the shackles are at a slightly different angle, just like the springs on my customers Scout.
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Last edited by az scout guy; 08-29-2010 at 06:37 PM.
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  #22  
Old 08-30-2010
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az scout guy az scout guy is offline
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

Here is some pics of the blue 800a with the new Springs

http://www.anythingscout.com/fleet/vehicle/1529/show
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Canyon Offroad (480)265-5393
281 S. Ironwood dr. Apache Junction,AZ
http://canyonoffroad.com/
69 800a, SOA,RS,tbi 345,727,d44 power-lock 5.13's, ford 9" detroit 5.13's, hi steer, 38.5x11.00 boggers, daily driver(sold)
79 rallye built 345, custom headers, 727, SOA,RS,35x12.5 BFG
76 traveler SOA, RS, 350 tbi, 700r4,d300 4to1
"It's a tractor thing you wouldn't understand"
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  #23  
Old 08-30-2010
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

Well I'll add a little to the confusion. I used CJ 2.5" springs on my Scout. They were from Rough Country and that is the only experience with CJ springs I had. The price was right and they were easy to install. I was happy with them as long as I had the 196 in it. However 1 side started to sag after I installed my 345 into it and after a little wheeling. I hit a few gulleys pretty hard and this could have been the reason Rear springs are holding up great and the right front is to. I am going to try an add a leaf soon before I give up on them altogether.
For the price I gave, I could get 3 sets of most lift springs for the Scout. So really I can't complain much.
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  #24  
Old 09-02-2010
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

I took a pic of the 40 year old stock spring with the Mr. Scout springs to see the difference... Looks like the stockers have more or the same arch and one more leaf
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Canyon Offroad (480)265-5393
281 S. Ironwood dr. Apache Junction,AZ
http://canyonoffroad.com/
69 800a, SOA,RS,tbi 345,727,d44 power-lock 5.13's, ford 9" detroit 5.13's, hi steer, 38.5x11.00 boggers, daily driver(sold)
79 rallye built 345, custom headers, 727, SOA,RS,35x12.5 BFG
76 traveler SOA, RS, 350 tbi, 700r4,d300 4to1
"It's a tractor thing you wouldn't understand"
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  #25  
Old 09-02-2010
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Re: FAQ lift options needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by az scout guy View Post
I took a pic of the 40 year old stock spring with the Mr. Scout springs to see the difference... Looks like the stockers have more or the same arch and one more leaf

Man! that's just crazy...
Have you showed those to Mr. Scout?
If so, what was the response?
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